Well of course I went to hear the Jay Mathews talk… 
As I mentioned in a previous post, Mathews came to speak at a local school’s monthly PTSA meeting this evening. I’m not sure how the PTSA lured him but he was quite the draw, filling the school’s media center seats and leaving some standing. I recognized many faces, including parents from a local high school where his Challenge Index and the elimination of honors classes has been a hot topic on the listserv. Also in the crowd: Mr. Marty Creel, head of the MPCS Department of Enriched and Innovative Instruction. For once he wasn’t in the hot seat, rather on an incognito “listening mission” in preparation no doubt for the next AEI Advisory Committee Meeting (this Thursday). Poor man, he jiggled his legs violently throughout the presentation.
So what did Mr. Mathews have to say? He began with some background, how having been the West Coast bureau chief for the Post, several years later he returned to DC and asked to be put on the Metro section desk. Not exactly a typical career trajectory for a talented journalist. Of course he found a way to weave in mention of his several books too, including Escalante: The Best Teacher in America, Class Struggle: What’s Wrong (and Right) with America’s Best Public High Schools, Supertest: How the International Baccalaureate Can Strengthen Our Schools, and his most recent, Work Hard. Be Nice, which is about KIPP charter schools in DC.
And then it was on to Q and A and the fun began.
A parent asked a leading question about “labels” like “low income” and “minority.” Did these successful schools he wrote about use them? Mathews responded that the schools were pretty homogeneous: 100% “FARMS,” about 80% Hispanic with a small GT magnet that was “GT in name only.” He related an anecdote where a GT student came to teacher Jaime Escalante and said she was in the gifted program and was having a problem with an aspect of math. Escalante told her one of his “non-gifted” students would show her how to do it. And did.
The questioner pressed him on what he thought about the MCPS “no-labels” pilot initiative. Mathews waffled then said, “I don’t think public schools are equipped to give a good GT education. If I had a gifted student I would not put my faith in the public schools. I would get together with other parents and put something together.”
Wow. Let me write that again:
I don’t think public schools are equipped to give a good GT education. If I had a gifted student I would not put my faith in the public schools. I would get together with other parents and put something together.
That breathtaking sentence alone made the meeting worth attending. What is he saying here? That swaths of parents should homeschool? Start a charter or private school? That they have no claim to an appropriate public education? That they have to provide … I don’t know what. Is he assuming that all gifted kids come from families in a socio-economic position to do this? (Mathews’ kids, by the way, are rumored to have attended Sidwell Friends.)
Pull outs–and he implied by extension, the label–were a way “to make parents feel good.” That said, he backpedaled, noting that he had not been doing the reporting on the MCPS labeling issue, and that he’s “not sure that lifting the label is the answer.”
One parent chimed in “In Montgomery County everyone is GT by 3rd grade or you’re dead.”
There was a question about the International Baccalaureate’s Global Centre for the Americas (aka North American headquarters) moving to Montgomery County (about which MCPS found it necessary to <surprise!> issue a press release.) Mr. Mathews is obviously a big fan of the IB and he described his frustration in trying to get any answer from 16 colleges in the area about why they won’t give the same credit for IB exams as they do for AP exams.
There was a question about student stress and the increasingly high expectations facing students. And then a question about acceleration: It appears that large numbers of students are going through the AP testing regime, but they don’t do well; they’re getting failing grades. Mathews found this “interesting” and said he’d need to see the data. A parent piped up with an anecdote of 9th graders having to repeat classes they “passed” in middle school. Mathews fell back on AP classes forcing teachers to “raise their game.”
Someone brought up teacher quality…someone else spoke of parents hiring tutors to go over what their children had missed in the drive to accelerate. Another parent jumped in to say that there’s the same phenomenon in private schools, where she had always thought one went for a “better” education. But there these families were, at the tutor’s. So it wasn’t “better,” which “blew her away.” (Afterwards an acquaintance said she could swear that she heard Mathews say under his breath “it is better.”)
A high school parent–and local elementary school teacher–said that he was seeing second graders taking 4th grade math, 4th graders taking 6th and seventh grade math, and not “getting it.” Mr. Mathews seemed genuinely surprised to be hearing all this, kept asking if there was data, if he had data he could share. The audience laughed when the teacher/parent said that he as “Jay Mathews of the Washington Post” had a better chance at getting data out of MCPS than anyone else in the room. A mom with a daughter in the same high school said her daughter and others were retaking Geometry–a class they had taken in middle school. They “get it” on the test–but they don’t really “get it.” The teacher/parent said he blamed the central office, which has set a target of 80% for completion of algebra by grade 8. (Hmm, now where have we heard this before? To meet YOUR Challenge Index, Mr. Mathews.) Applause. Mathews said the county could give a test…the teacher replied that they do give a test, there are unit tests…and students nail the county tests. But it’s county standards. Proficiency is 60%. They’d be failing elsewhere. What’s more they learn to hate math. Mr. Mathews seemed genuinely surprised and interested in hearing more from the teacher/parent (“I’ve learned more in 10 minutes here…”) and I hope they do connect and share data, even if just anecdotal.
A parent brought up the recent op-ed piece by the Blair math magnet teacher, Erik Walstein, how he tests the “creme de la creme” of the county– and these students don’t understand the fundamentals of math. They’re skimming. Mathews didn’t seem to be aware of the letter, which many found surprising.
Whew! And then it was over. A bunch of people walked out with Mr. Mathews and he invited people to contact him at the Post. (I haven’t even had a chance to comment on his recent responses to letters on homeschooling.)
Overall, a very worthwhile evening. Look for some interesting stories in the weeks ahead.
Very interesting. I’ve had some long email conversations with Mathews and have to say he can be very frustrating, even one on one. (Well, you probably already surmise that.) Very blind to anything that doesn’t fit with what he already knows in his heart of hearts must be true.
But he *has*written about kids taking algebra in middle school but not “getting it.” Someone had created data and he reacted all surprised and upset. That was sometime in the last year, I thought.
You folks got him to say some things I never thought I would hear from him. Never. Pretty interesting. Wonder how he will spin it in his column.
I had no idea that Jay Matthews sent his own kids to private school. What a hypocrite!
[...] opted for professional development and a conference where she experienced Jay Mathews – Live! (The “More” Child). At another conference about higher education, Jim presented a talk [...]
[...] article on math acceleration (Accelerated Math Challenge, For a Student and Her Mom) was sparked by his recent visit to an MCPS middle school (which I attended) where he was blindsided by parent concerns regarding math acceleration. This is [...]
This is an excellent report on what was a very complex and varied discussion. My only correction would be I didn’t say that private schools are better under my breath because I do not believe that is the case. I have said many times that the data show clearly that if a public and a private school have the same demographic slice of students, at least on the high end of the scale, their achievement levels are going to be pretty much the same. I have often told parents who call seeking my views on this that if they are living in Montgomery County, or Northern Va., they are nuts to send their kid to a private school unless the child has some very special need.
As for what gifted parents should do about the inadequacy of gifted ed in public schools, I am a big fan of John Hoven and support their fight for their rights. But I think it is a losing cause. Public school systems, even Moco, are never going to have the will or the resources to give those students what they need and deserve. So, indeed, if you have the money, you should go outside. Private school is NOT the alternative I am talking about. They are no better at this than the publics. I think some kind of cooperative tutoring or home-schooling arrangement, in which parents pool their resources and expertise to take their kids on special excursions or projects on the weekend, would be one way to go. But I confess I have never seen this done. I do believe, however, that since the beginning of time gifted kids have learned the most in non-school hours.
As for my family’s school choices, my wife and I are both public school products and would prefer public schools, but we have made different choices with each kid, depending on where we were. While in Pasadena Calif., where the public schools, particularly the high schools, were bad, we went private. In Scarsdale, NY, where the opposite was the case, we went public. In Bethesda, with one kid left, I voted for the public school, Whitman, but my wife and daughter liked Sidwell, so I lost. I am quite convinced that she would have gotten just as much at Whitman as at Sidwell, and I regularly goaded the Sidwell people about their laid-back attitude toward AP, and their refusal to release their AP data. They liked Katie, who got a lot out of the school because of its athletic program, a surprise to me, but they were happy to see me go.
[...] He was responding to my post last month about his visit to a local middle school. Not only did he have some kind words for my reportage (thanks!) and give a little personal background about his own family’s schooling decisions, he had some very interesting words on gifted education and dare I say homeschooling. You can read his full comment here. [...]
Jay Mathews said:
“Public school systems, even Moco, are never going to have the will or the resources to give those students what they need and deserve. So, indeed, if you have the money, you should go outside. Private school is NOT the alternative I am talking about.”
Mr. Mathews, when it comes to resources MCPS has them with a $2.1 billion budget that has doubled in 10 years. But you are right, they don’t want to spend them on children. The State of Maryland and the County allocate funds to MCPS for TEXTBOOKS. However, Superintendent Weast does not “believe” in textbooks and so he withholds that funding, declares it surplus and moves it to other departments – year after year.
You are very wrong about private schools on this issue. Private schools can provide TEXTBOOKS and that can be a powerful tool for a child with a hunger to learn. Just the addition of TEXTBOOKS can make a huge difference to a child who is bored to tears in MCPS or not learning in the classroom. In parochial schools many of the TEXTBOOKS are paid for by OUR tax dollars. That’s right. When the parochial school kids get many of their textbooks they are stamped PROPERTY OF THE STATE OF MARYLAND. It can take paying for private school in Montgomery County to get your child the basic resources that they need to be successful.
MCPS gets the same TEXTBOOK funding, but doesn’t want to spend it on textbooks.
You are incorrect about a basic private school not being able to give a child a better education in Montgomery County. Put a child in private school side by side with a child in MCPS, compare the experiences, and you would be amazed. The private school child can be exposed to areas of curriculum (for example in science and social studies) a full 5 years ahead of MCPS. There are children in the world that have interests and aptitude outside of just math, reading, and scoring proficient on MSAs – and private school can serve those children. Parents can supplement the private school experience with the outside opportunities you discuss without having to create an entire school to educate their child.
Jay said:
“I think some kind of cooperative tutoring or home-schooling arrangement, in which parents pool their resources and expertise to take their kids on special excursions or projects on the weekend, would be one way to go. But I confess I have never seen this done. I do believe, however, that since the beginning of time gifted kids have learned the most in non-school hours.”
Hmmm …. Jay may have never seen this, but I have. I’ll give two examples.
First, Fairfax County Association of the Gifted (FCAG) itself is a prime example of a group of parents who pool their resources and expertise to provide for gifted students. During the 2008-2009 school year, FCAG and its parent volunteer members provided AMC 8 and AMC 10 tests, free of charge, because most schools in Fairfax County wouldn’t do it. Through this effort, many of the 8th graders (and at least one 7th grader) qualified for and went on to compete in AIME.
Second, what Jay is describing is essentially what my wife and I have been doing for the past year or so, with math. My son’s middle school somehow ended up with a group of highly mathematically precocious kids (all JHU CTY/SET), with an average SAT math score of about 780 in their 7th grade year. I knew they were special – when they were in 6th grade, I mentioned Mersenne primes, and they knew what it was. I let the school know, hoping that they would jump at their good fortune and do something for/with these kids. Well, I got tired of waiting and decided to do something about it myself. It was just upsetting to see the school ignoring these kids. My wife and I’ve been meeting with a select group of kids from my son’s middle school, once or twice a week, doing higher level math with them. I’ve also encouraged them to participate in a math circle with high school kids. Speaking of excursions, I’ve taken these super group of 7th and 8th graders, either independently or as part of the math circle, to GWU Colonial Math Challenge (we lost to the TJ team in the semifinal round), JHU Math Tournament, Princeton University Math Competition, American Regional Math League (local & national). I’ll occasionally send them articles or papers on math topics, lend them books, etc… And last year, my wife organized a small gathering and did a practice TJ test. We invited families we’ve met at CTY functions, and this was more of a social event than a real test, and the kids had a lot of fun (and as far as I know, everyone who participated got into TJ!).
To Jay’s point that public school is not equipped to service gifted kids – in my experience, it’s worse than that. Not only do the schools not service them, the schools actively try to make them dumber and discourage intellectual development. It’s clear that most FCPS staff members have never come to see a math or science team practice or to a math/science competition, or seen a group kids staying behind after a very intense 3 hours math test to compare notes and discuss the merits of various problems which were on the test, or really, simply see a group of really smart kids having fun tackling hard and challenging problems. This is just inconceivable to the bureaucrats at Gatehouse I. For example, when asked about providing space for AMC 8/10 tests, FCPS response was basically “why would we ever do that? No kid would want to do it and it would demoralize others who aren’t good at math.” And for the same reason, achievements of their gifted students on the AMC 8, AMC 10 and the AIME aren’t acknowledged or publicized.
[...] an interesting and thought provoking post on the ability of public schools to provide adequate education resources to the GT population, see The “More” Child Blog recent post on a visit by Jay Mathews.Washington, DC suburbs [...]
[...] an interesting and thought provoking post on the ability of public schools to provide adequate education resources to the GT population, see The “More” Child Blog recent post on a visit by Jay Mathews.Washington, DC [...]
[...] knowledge workers, with stable (if not “wealthy”) incomes. Heck, even Jay Mathews endorses it! Add some growing dissatisfaction, the realization that I’m not buying what [...]