Back from our Thanksgiving holiday and catching up with e-mail, I was excited to read the following headline on Washington Post education writer Jay Mathews‘ weekly “Extra Credit” column: “There’s Gifted, and Then There’s Profoundly Gifted.” The title alone was gratifying as it encapsulates the message that many parents struggle to communicate with schools, teachers, family, friends–the idea that there are levels/degrees of giftedness. (Ruf’s book here.)
The exchange is reprinted here…
Dear Extra Credit:
Recently, you said in The Post that you thought the needs of the gifted were being adequately addressed. I know there are many parents who disagree with you, but I am not one of them. I think that the big local public school districts are doing a good job meeting the needs of the vast majority of gifted kids. Those kids are like my son, who attends a Fairfax County public schools Gifted and Talented Center. The center is a great model for the moderately to highly gifted child.
However, I do think there is a small segment of gifted children for which the GT centers are not a good model. These are the exceptionally and profoundly gifted, who have the very highest IQs. And I think it is the parents of these children whom you continue to hear from. I believe that these kids are the ones who need to skip a grade (or two) to be with their intellectual peers, although they do not fit in socially with older kids. When they are placed with their age peers in a GT Center, the exceptionally and profoundly gifted kids tend to have problems in general with socializing and fitting in, which sets them up for bullying, teasing, social isolation, etc.
Public schools require 20 to 30 kids in a classroom, and that may not be the best learning model for the exceptionally and profoundly gifted. (And I’m not sure the parents would want them going to “resource rooms” for their lessons, like special education). I guess the real problem comes in the total number of the exceptionally and profoundly gifted. They are such a small percentage of the school population that their parents just don’t have a big enough voice to get them any special services. I know that many end up home-schooling.
Wendy Hoskins
Falls Church areaI think you are quite right. It is unrealistic and indeed harmful to try to develop services for such kids in the public schools. Nearly everyone acknowledges that our public schools cannot find, train or afford to pay staff members who can teach anything useful to children with the compositional talents of Mozart or the putting stroke of Tiger Woods, to name just two child prodigies. Such children need specialists, as do the exceptionally and profoundly gifted students you cite. If we try to teach them in public schools, we are likely to waste their time. I am similarly not convinced that our GT centers, although wonderful places for many of those students, add much value in the long term. I still await data that prove me wrong. I think it is much better to accelerate gifted students to the upper grades — or bring upper-grade lessons down to them — so they can learn something new.
Some of Ms. Hoskins’ observations about Fairfax County Center programs mirror our experience (C. attended one of the MCPS Centers for the Highly Gifted for fourth grade and a middle school magnet program) : instances of mean spiritedness toward C., of hostility from staff who couldn’t understand why C. couldn’t get with the program, the difficulty in advocating on C.’s behalf.
As for Mr. Mathews’ response, I find it perplexing. On the one hand he seems to acknowledge that exceptionally and profoundly gifted students need special instruction and are often best taught by receiving accelerated instruction. On the other hand he seems to be saying that these students shouldn’t be/can’t be/don’t deserve to be educated in a public school setting (“harmful?”). Does he feel the same way about children at the other end of the spectrum? How should these children be educated? Not every family can homeschool. And if private schools are even an educational option (often they’re not), not all can afford them.
My big question is how are children to be identified as profoundly gifted in the first place and receive the acceleration and special educational planning they need when the school system for the most part doesn’t acknowledge that there are *levels* of giftedness? When there is no legal provision or otherwise for gifted IEPs. When the system has the data that might indicate profound giftedness but doesn’t act on it, doesn’t share this testing with parents so they can effectively advocate (it’s only in the past few years that parents have actually been told their child’s scores on the 2nd grade GT screening…before you just got a letter saying your child is gifted…or not), and basically doesn’t see the profoundly gifted child in their midst–or is hostile to the very “symptoms” of the child’s giftedness?
Yes some children, like Mozart and Tiger Woods to use Mathews’ examples, demonstrate their talent in a visible way at very early ages, such that it comes to the attention to adults and teachers. But what of the profoundly gifted math student or — and this is my particular passion — what of the profoundly verbally gifted student?
These exceptionally and profoundly gifted students may not be doing anything particularly “prodigious” when they enter Kindergarten. They may simply present as curious, active, kids with lots to say about subjects one wouldn’t expect a 6 year old to talk about. But even when a child is reading at an advanced level in the early grades there is a) the assumption that other children will “catch up” and the child will “even out” and b) the doubt as to whether the child is actually comprehending what he/she is reading. (Just an aside, but would an adult persevere reading a book that he/she didn’t comprehend? No, they’d put it aside. So if a child is “reading” I’ll go out on a limb and say that yes, that child is also comprehending.)
Meanwhile, the first official screening for giftedness takes place at the end of second grade. By that time, a child will have spent three years in a mixed ability classroom without any special programming. With luck the profoundly gifted child hasn’t begun to rebel or encounter social difficulties. Further screening in the fall of 3rd grade will determine if a child is eligible for a Center program, which starts 4th grade. So it is possible that an exceptionally/profoundly gifted child might not get his or her first meaningful intervention until 4th grade. This even though the most successful, least disruptive acceleration is done in the early grades. (By the later elementary grades school officials are resistant to accelerate students into middle school for social reasons, and the same holds for acceleration into high school).
Because entry into a Center program is considered *the* answer to meeting the needs of a highly gifted elementary student in MCPS (again, no mention or indication of awareness about exceptionally and profoundly gifted), there is tremendous institutional resistance if not outright hostility to “skipping” a child in K-2, which perversely can work against the best interests of the exceptionally or profoundly gifted child. And there is no explicit GT or accelerated curriculum by subject from which teachers can draw. Parents are just urged to “hang in there”…with the carrot of future admission to a Center program dangled before them.
I know all this firsthand. C. did not become “profoundly gifted” at age 12 when her SAT scores arrived in our mailbox—she was the same child she was from the first day she entered MCPS, tests or no tests. And although she was in every gifted program offered for her age we were told repeatedly that she needed to learn to fit in, be less arrogant, that “there are other kids just as smart as her,” “it’s a challenging curriculum,” “the teachers differentiate,” “just wait until high school, that’s when she’ll really soar” (this was in 4th grade–what should she do for the next four years?), “you can learn something in every class.” I had to go to Rockville to see her Center screening results and I had to press the principal at her home school to request those scores. (Silly me, I thought it might be helpful for her teachers to know more about her.) It was we, after a disastrous–in retrospect very misguided on our part–year back in “normal” school, who finally decided to have her tested at CTY. And when things started going badly in middle school (“We have many other students with her profile” sniffed the coordinator) it was again we who shared the data, who pressed the school to look at her in a different light, who argued that she needed more, different. All to no avail. There was no additional way to accelerate in the humanities. C. was made to be the problem and we were just unreasonable parents. In my opinion, the system failed her, failed us.
If we, who were well-educated, knew how to advocate and most importantly had the resources to get outside testing done, were so unsuccessful, what chance would a less-advantaged child have of being identified as exceptionally or profoundly gifted? That’s what I wonder. And that’s a question that Jay Mathews needs to address more fully.
Well done. Persuasive!
I wonder whether you have advice for me; one of my children is highly verbal, too. (She is four years old.) What do you think of CTY, DITD, EPGY? Where should we go to find thought peers who are maybe also close to her age? If we homeschool her (and good gracious, whatever would a Kindergarten teacher find to occupy her?) are there any groups you recommend?
-fellow MCPS area parent
Hello Elizabeth,
Recommendations?
If you have a strong feeling that your child is beyond highly gifted, get her tested. We used CTY…I figured why not go to the “experts” since we are fortunate to have them so close by. But there are many people in the area who test….some private school websites have recommendations.
Begin to create a portfolio of things you observe, she says and does, photos, samples, lists of books read, etc. to document. Read the Deborah Ruf’s book, Losing Our Minds. Based on the testing and what you read in Ruf, apply to Davidson, which helps connect families with exceptionally gifted children.
Should you choose to homeschool, attend some homeschooler activities/outings and see who you gel with and who your daughter gels with. Create homeschool coop classes or organize outings that will by their very nature tease out families/kids who share both your interests. One of the beauties of homeschooling is that activities aren’t age/grade/zip code based…you may find that your daughter strikes up friendships with older children or different ages might suit her depending on activity. When she’s older, look into EPGY and CTY for online learning. We haven’t done a CTY camp or distance learning class, so I can’t speak to those directly.
The DC area is such a great place to homeschool…tons of things to see and do, and lots of smart people around here too.
Good luck!
[...] – The Problem of Being Profoundly Gifted, But Not in Math Switched-on-Mom’s post “There’s Gifted, and Then There’s Profoundly Gifted” got me [...]
This was a great post. I responded over here (http://adsoofmelk.wordpress.com/2008/01/22/invisibly-gifted-the-problem-of-being-profoundly-gifted-but-not-in-math/) to one of the issues you raised because they definitely hit home.
[...] 26. Help: what do we do with the profoundly gifted? (The "More" Child). [...]
Great post. Back in my day–eons ago, there were no “labels,” and there was no routine testing. My IQ puts me in the “profoundly gifted” category (I was tested because teachers recogized it early on), and I’m almost 100% sure my 8-yr-old is in that ballpark as well. There was no “gifted” program per se back then, but my teachers, from K even through University were smart enough to recognize that I needed something different. I essentially went through much of my K-12 experience in independent study, then was allowed graduate university courses when I entered University.
What I see these days, now that I’m a teacher, is that most educators DON’T recognize that while the average gifted child can be served in the regular classroom, with regular curriculum, the profoundly gifted child MUST be accelerated even if it is with independent study at the back of the room.
Before I entered school, my parents had me tested (also the profoundly gifted range), but no one explained to them what those scores meant. There were not many “gifted” programs at any of the schools which I attended, and many of my teachers were quite reluctant to give me opportunities for advanced work (especially as I did not enjoy the grade-level work that I needed to do first). When I finally entered the gifted programs available, I found that these generally met the needs of gifted students; however, these did not meet my educational needs at all. Often, these teachers did not understand that my educational needs differed from many of the other gifted students’ needs. I definitely agree that acceleration, early college, or other modifications are necessary for students like me. In addition, I agree that educators should be trained in recognizing different levels of giftedness, so that each child’s needs can be met.
My 4 year old recently organized and implemented a “take over” in which her entire Pre-K revolted against naptime. Although I was concerned, I must admit I was also impressed. The “coup” was the final event leading to her IQ assessment using the WPPSI-III. The results confirmed what I already knew to be true; my daughter is gifted. I contacted the local school syatem about GT programs and special schools to find that they consider her too young to begin school. In fact she wouldn’t qualify for another 18 months! Does anyone have any suggestions? I am aware that an expensive private school may be my only option.
OMG! I *love* this story! Congrats to your daughter.
My advice: Start homeschooling her. Use materials that are at her intellectual level…even if they are well above “preschool.” Sign her up for a CTY course or two and then when she passes a 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade class you have that “transcript” to show the school in order to advocate for an appropriate placement.
Good luck!
Great post, and it’s what we’ve found with our 6yo profoundly gifted son. Even with test results sitting in front of them, his public kindergarten teacher, gifted teacher and principal refused *any* sort of differentiation for him, even with a 99.9 percentile IQ score, reading comprehension score at 5th grade level, and math at mid-second grade level when he was 5 years old — and with *no* formal instruction at home.
We were told he could do gifted first grade math as a first grader, though he would have tested out of that program as a Ker given the opportunity. Of course, he wasn’t given the opportunity. And in second grade, the “gifted program” started. It’s a good program, don’t get me wrong, but it’s aimed at moderately gifted kids. There is no highly gifted-plus option. My PG child needed more.
We ended up moving him, at great financial strain, to the local private gifted school, where kids are grouped by readiness level and not by age for math and language arts. My 6yo first grader was placed in a mixed first/second grade classroom, in groups of mostly second- and third-graders working in the middle of the third grade for both math and language arts. He’s thriving there, and actually *learning* at school — I can’t imagine him waiting another year to get an inadequate pull-out and sitting through days of lessons he knew as a 4- or even 3-year-old. What’s a reading child to do in first grade??
I find in unconscionable that we’re paying $15K a year to get our unusual child an education that’s even close to appropriate. Homeschooling is not an option for us, so although his tuition eats up more of my salary than we can really afford, it’s the best we can do.
Problem is, the response has a point — the best thing for a lot of these kids *is* either one-on-one tutoring or small group work, and convincing the general public that PG kids need this sort of radical accommodation just doesn’t go over well. “So, they’re smart!” people say. “That’s great!” Well, but when they’re too smart for the system … it’s a real problem for a lot of PG families out there.
We switched to a private school for the gifted at 4th grade. Paying the tuition is painful, but I don’t regard it as “unconscionable” that the public schools here can’t accommodate the very gifted—they have very limited resources and a lot of unfunded mandates. They can’t afford to do everything they are required to do, much less what they would *like* to do. (Of course, I’m in California, home of the never-tax-the-rich movement.)
I didn’t say it was unconscionable for public school to be able to accommodate the very gifted — I feel that I shouldn’t need to pay $15K a year to get my 6-year-old an education in which he *learns* something. If they can’t serve him in the regular classroom, fine; but they need to then be open to other possibilities, like online math study, or partial- or whole-grade acceleration. Other intellect groups get mandated services; my child should be no exception.
And as for what schools can do … I understand that there are financial concerns, and we weren’t looking for “perfect” with the public school he was in; we were asking for a single grade skip or at least differentiation, not one-on-one tuition. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
I agree that acceleration is a cheap option for gifted education that should be available at all public schools. I experienced that as a child, graduating from high school at age 16, after taking every advanced class they had.
We chose to go with a private school for the gifted for our son, because we thought it offered a broader and deeper curriculum with more individual attention and more experience dealing with the quirks of gifted kids. I don’t think it would have been reasonable to demand that of the cash-strapped public schools in our area. If we had not had the gifted-school option, we would have been demanding acceleration in the public school (which I know they did not like to do).
Hi Elizabeth,
My son and I have used the CTY and EPGY programs (actually, I believe they are the same, only one is run through Johns Hopkins (CTY), the other, Stanford (EPGY). Both courses are EXCELLENT, however, expensive – at least for us – I am a single mom, homeschooling, and financial aid will cover only 1 course per year, and that costs $ 245.00 after all financial aid is covered.
If you can afford it, I strongly recommend these programs… I’ve tried others, less expensive, and nothing can even come close to comparison.
Hope this helps. Good luck!
Kevin writes: “They can’t afford to do everything they are required to do, much less what they would *like* to do.”
I have a PG kid too. PG/ADD, not deficit of attention but attention regulation.
Here’s some food for thought. It has been said that public school just can’t do it, can’t (won’t?) accommodate these students on the extreme high end of intelligence. Okay, how about this? Exempt these parents from the tax portion that goes to school and give them a stipend. Allow them to apply those funds for private, distance, homeschool.
Maybe it is not unconscionable for schools to fall down on meeting the needs of ALL children. What is unconscionable, however, is taking our money so that we can educate other people’s children.
The amount of money CA takes from me to pay for education is peanuts. I’d much rather have a decent public education available to gifted kids than to have my $ back. Actually, there *is* a decent public school in town, but it is a lottery-entry charter. This year there are over 500 applicants for positions: 257 for the 40 7th grade positions and over 243 for the 0 8th-12th openings. That’s right—243 applicants in a lottery to get a position on the waiting list.
You’d think that with such a high demand, there would be pressure on the school board to open up another such charter. But that would be “elitist”, and they’d rather drive the students off to private schools. In fact, they try every year to shut the charter down, and to harass them in every way they can (like charging far more than market rate for the rent on the building). The charter is actually not chartered by the district but by the county, which is why it survives despite the hostility.
Meanwhile the highest-rated high school the district operates (they have 3 big ones and an alternative school) is proud that 32% of last year’s graduating class has gone to 4-year colleges, and 55% met the (rather low) admissions standards for Cal State. The high school actually does do some good things: they have an accelerated math program that gets about 30 students a year into calculus by their junior year, and they do have 9 AP classes (though not all are taught every year). The charter, at less than 1/3 the size, has 17 AP classes, making for a much more academic environment—the expectation there is that all students will take AP classes by their senior year.